Changes to how the friendly rides are run.

[TLS-Moose]

The JM system was brought in to encourage more experienced people to join the friendlies, allowing them to ride at a (slightly) quicker pace to keep the ride interesting, as many wouldnt attend believing it to be "too slow"

I have long contended that the drop off system is more appropriate for a friendly ride than the JM system. This way there is no need for anyone to be racing past the rest of the group. I do accept though, this means everyone on the ride has to mark junctions, and there are those that do not wish to do this, for one reason or another.

What I don't understand, is this talk of people having to "race to keep/catch up". There are two principle rules for a friendly ride - 1. The leader never rides above the legal limit. 2. Always keep a bike in sight in your mirrors. If you have to slow to achieve this, so be it, because if you do then everyone in front will have to as well. This should then be the primary speed control of the whole group, not the leader.

As for comments on the behaviour of some junction markers, I can't comment because I haven't been there of late. But if they have to exist, they should only be passing when safe, and with due thought for those they are passing ...... Not having a private race to get back to the front.

[Gimlet]

While we're at it a ban on people passing on the inside might not be a bad idea. I don't mean undertaking at speed on the road, which is obviously idiotic,but sneaking through on the inside at junctions and stops. On the last ride when the lead group were slowing to allow followers to catch up it we were about to pull into a lay-by/passing space. A rider shot through on the inside of me as I was pulling to the left. The same rider did it again later at a roundabout . Its extremely dangerous and given time will only end one way. You wouldn't do it in a car and you shouldn't do it on a bike just because there is physically room.

And on the subject or returning to the front, it should be remembered that overtaking requires you to cross the central line and pass slower vehicles by using the oncoming carriageway. Buzzing past someone's elbow in the same lane and cutting in abruptly in front of them is purely and simply abysmal riding. For the record, this is rarely a crime of JMs. From what I've seen so far on the rides I've been on its usually faster riders who've got bored or feel the need to flex their muscles to impress the juniors.
Overtaking or returning to the front really shouldn't be difficult at legal speeds. If you're going to overtake please do it properly and if you want to pass in front of another rider at a junction please do it on the outside. It basic stuff.

[Tractorwackyracer]

Well said moose Mirrors mirrors Steveo and I only talked about this yesterday mirrors and for those that don't want to do
J M or are new or on smaller bikes they could be buddied up with a more experienced rider to show them the ropes riders with arm bands could just be randomly in the group to help J M if required also if the group gets split stay where you are the main group/ ride leader can back track or make a phone call

[Moley551]

On the last ride, My first with JM's I was close to the front, from my perspective the problem was that within a mile from the start all the JM's were on post, the roundabouts and traffic broke up the group the first JM to be released by the TEC had no hope of getting back to the front before he was needed, I realised as I past a JM that it was Simon and slowed to allow him to catch up, he and some JM's passed within a few seconds, at that point I thought it was back on plan... I assume the lost group was racing around trying to find the main group. With a full spectrum of riders there's always going to be a debate on speed and how close people are comfortable together, personally I didn't see anything negative.

[Steve0]

I agree and disagree...

Changing the ride to cater for a few who cannot reign it in is the wrong approach, as a community should be supporting folks... If you cant reign it in then... YOUR ON THE WRONG RIDE !

I disagree that drop off is better for a large group, if you have 10, 12 even a couple more, who are all experienced riders, used to riding in a group or with each other it works brilliantly, I don't think it would work so well on a friendly... I myself would have concerns over new riders / inexperienced riders feeling that they have to do this if they are not comfortable with this, there is also positioning on the road when stopped, marking, pulling away, the possibility of maybe being a bit out of there comfort zone, or feel the need to "Catch up"

I have some ideas which i waiting to discuss Simon...

I 100% agree with Moose... if you cannot see the rider in your mirror's... slow it down safely, I believe this is the most important rule, and hope that folks agree...

I think a mix of both could work using drop off and a buddy system... new or inexperienced riders could be buddied up with someone for the day, or as long as they want, using armbands, and this could help with bringing peoples confidence on and road positioning, how to mark a junction, where to mark etc...

This does mean folks stepping up though, similar to JM or TEC

If someone does not feel confident enough to do it, then they should not feel they have to do it...

If there is ever an issue, someone gets lost, breakdown, accident etc, stay where you are as safely as you can, and wait, the TEC will always be coming past and they can advise others in the group, the ride leader whats happening...

Bottom line - Stay where you are, we will find you.

Its unlikely it will happen though, as the TEC will always be on the Freindly Ride.

I also think having experienced riders throughout the group with armbands, will help give new riders, or new to the group someone to go to if they need to, and it will also help monitor what is happening on the run.

As i say i hope to discuss this with Simon, and NO... I don't have all the answers... Just ideas...

We all want to enjoy these rides, and the group to grow, I think the Friendly rides are a great way to join SWB.

Cheers

[Bullet]

This is all becoming very long winded! I do these rides as its a social day, great roads and as a JM I get to have a bit of extra fun safely. I for 1 will not do any type of buddy system as I do not want to feel responsible for any other rider especially if there was an incident. Everybody is responsible for themselves and those around them when they ride.
The way I see it is it pretty simple, the ride organiser sets how they want the ride riden, anyone who wants to
Attend knows these so can make an informed choice as to weather the wish to ride or post their own ride. Apart from the past 2 I've attended they all run pretty smoothly as its not rocket science. It's all now becoming more like a military manauvoire with lots of suggestions on how to change, how to ride, slow down if you can't see anybody, etc etc. That's the whole point of JM and TEC???
I left the last ride as it wasn't enjoyable and borderline dangerous from some of what I witnessed to the point of 2 riders almost in a head on Collosion. I'm sure there will be a lot more fire in this thread before it's over but for the reasons already outlined I fear I will no longer be attending these rides. However I'm sure they will again be enjoyable when the new tweaks are implemented, but no matter how much you tweak something, implement changes and the like it's only ever as good as the weakest link in the chain!

[DevonBlue]

Its not the ride that needs tweaking, its the people. I have been on almost all of the friendlies over the last 3 years and been junction marker on a few and they have definately got a lot quicker and more dangerous. Every time jms are used people complain about them but you dont hear the complaints with drop off, having said that fully understand that with a big turn out and always some new folk it is a lot harder. Jm should work fine but the problem is certain people only want an armband so they can turn thier friendly into a fast ride regardless of who they piss off with thier riding. Large groups are always going to get split up but you just need to keep in mind that there is no pressure to catch up as there is always someone behind you playing tec.
What made the last ride worse was every time we left from a stop the jms didnt get chance to leave directly behind simon as should be the case as everyone just set off on mass. On top of that certain riders didnt want to let jms overtake and actually overtook the jms themselves several times. Surely its quite simple: let the jms set off first, let them overtake you to enable them to mark the junctions, jms - surely there is no need to overtake other jms??, if a big gap appears then dont panic cos you will catch up, and dont ride like a twat. I dont want to just pootle around every time i go out on my bike, wheres the fun in that?? but if you attend a friendly then it is what it is so ride accordingly. Just my opion

[TLS-Moose]

Here's a thought that could possibly be included either in advance, or even on the day, if there's an unexpectedly large attendance ......

Two ride leaders!
The primary leader sets off with the junction markers behind them. After say 5mins, the second leader departs with the main group following.

As the JM's will now be in position comfortably in advance of the main group, the man group should progress smoothly. Once the TEC has passed and the JM's have gently moved through the group and passed the second leader, they can have a bit more fun catching the main leader.

On big rides such as the DAAT ride, the JM's/Marshalls leave in advance of the field and don't really take part in the ride itself, whereas on our rides they are an integral part of the group. The above suggestion is a sort of combination of the two.

If the route is very "busy", there is a chance that the main leader may have to stop due to a lack of JM's, but if that happens and the second leader/main group actually managed to catch up, so what? You only have to wait until a couple of JM's come through and then you perform the same staggered re-start process.

Food for thought.

[Tractorwackyracer]

Oh Sean really

The trouble is is everyone has an oppion that's life I am afraid hence airing it on here
Fun and safety you got it its just not everyone else have as summed up on here
The buddy system is ONLY A SUGGESTION to show newbies how the drop off system works and as you have already said your
A) not happy doing that because responsibility scares you so won't be asked (if it happens)
B) not attending any friendly rides

It doesn't have to become a military operation just organised so people know what's happening and what to do if something happens (lost or breakdow etc) large groups are always going get split up its a fact we are just trying to help the group get back together
Agreed ride leader should set the rules if there are to be any !!
I just think in general there are a few spoilling it for the rest we all like to ride a bit fast every now and then but head ons and overtaking on bends buzzing people etc is out of order in general the pace has picked up on friendly rides good for some but not all
I think there are a few lessons for everyone to take onboard

[Steve0]

Hi...

It was only a suggestion... I am happy to plan and organise some of these rides going forward and into 2017 and put together a more regular posted rides on the Forum if members are happy with that...

Everybody is entitled to there opinions, and ideas, I don't want a military exercise and it should be good fun, a social and an opportunity for folks to get out on there bike...

[Tractorwackyracer]

In a nut shell

[Millsyboy]

I tend to ride in small group 2-4 and we always keep person behind in view and no-one overtakes leader. The leader flags person behind to take over the lead if they want. As our group goes at pace, the person behind can get stuck behind traffic, junctions etc. so person in-front of them simply slows down till catch up. If leader notices group getting split, then simply pulls in at next safest place.

[Scotty]

This thread is an interesting read - I've been on numerous ride-outs over the years with mates from Wiltshire Bikers, ranging from a handful of us having a "brisk" ride to some of the "Official" ride-outs that ended up becoming over-populated and unwieldy (I'm not sure you don't need to inform the Police if organising a procession of 50-odd bikes) - on these I tended to look at the leader's map and agree an RVP and clear off to have some fun, but that's just me being anti-social, and not enjoying threading my way past dozens of slow and erratic bikes after marking a junction.

We use the Drop-off marker system and to be honest it's pretty faultless - it's been honed slightly over the years, and the ride leader has to advise all participants of what to do (like wait somewhere visible at a junction!) before setting off. Another important one is that EVERYONE starts with a full tank - I recall one farcical WB ride where 40 or 50 bikes were led into Beckington filling station near Frome after starting the ride-out at Trowbridge McDonalds (centre of the Universe for some.... ) - about three miles away! As long as the markers are disciplined (and observant) enough not to move until the back-marker reaches them, everything is OK.

When using the drop-off system the leader points to a junction that requires marking and the following rider stops as directed - sorry if I'm repeating what you already know, but if I read the preceding posts correctly you tend to have dedicated markers who have to tear past everyone to get to the front each time - that's asking for trouble and must surely lead to staccato progress at times, not to mention the dangers of forcing their way past nervous riders. When using the drop-off system, everyone can ride at their own pace, there's no compulsion to keep up and if for any reason a rider would prefer not to mark a junction (though God knows why, it isn't difficult!) they can moderate their progress and be passed by quicker riders. The only issues that I've experienced as a ride leader using the drop-off system is running out of following riders and having to slow down and wait for someone to catch up and mark a turn.

It helps to be prudent with directing marking points and it can be stated at the pre-ride briefing that mini-roundabouts won't be marked unless taking an different direction, if going straight on then it won't be marked.

I was involved in a "debate" with WB management over the compulsory wearing of a hi-viz vest as leader - my argument was that everyone who's followed me says that a fluorescent pink Arai is far easier to spot, and there have been instances of ride participants randomly following someone else who was wearing a hi-viz off in a different direction. Management were adamant that leaders on "Official" Ride-Outs had to wear hi-viz so I said testicles, do it without me.

I've heard that 4 Counties Bikers operate a strict no overtaking policy on their ride-outs - stuff that idea! (I'm happy to be corrected but was told this about 4CB several years ago). I'll gladly debate the merits of the drop-off system if anyone disagrees that it's easy and flexible and not that prone to mistakes.

[ptolemyx]

Perhaps my eyesight is failing but I found it difficult to discern the arm bands of the JMs. I think it's safer and simpler for larger group rides to just use the drop off system, with the proviso that everyone is aware of who the TEC is and that he or she ensures they wave on the person who's stopped at a junction. As has been mentioned, anyone marking a deviation from the straight ahead should position themselves safely and clearly to make it easy for following riders to follow the group. This would mean you don't have to slow down to ensure a rider is in sight behind you and nobody is pressured to overtake to get back to the front.

What spoilt the last ride for me was the seemingly eternal waits that circumstances forced us to endure.

[badgerKDD]

The drop off system does work well, as long as everybody follows it. I've led a few larger ride outs and then been patiently been followed by one rider who wouldn't drop off, luckily after a couple of junctions the more experienced riders took up the vacant places and when a roundabout was reached managed to shuffle forward of the rider. So if the drop system is used it must be made clear at the start of the run how the system works and if you are not confident enough to feel you can do it, stay a few places back from the leader and let others safely pass you to keep that distance.

Also I don't think we should put too much reliance on Hi Viz bibs, more riders are wearing them as part of their daily riding gear and can cause confusion in a group situation.

Otherwise I'm now interested to see what Simon has come up with, the tension is mounting ......